On SpyCast: The intelligence fallout of being DOGE'd

Fired government employees most at risk for Chinese and Russian recruiting have never received any counterintelligence training, according to the former Director of Counterintelligence.

For a while now, I have wanted to explore the counterintelligence threat that comes from the Trump administration’s sweeping and swift dismissals of employees in the federal workforce.

With thousands now terminated, Russia and China are setting in. “I do believe that we are in a position right now where if we don't take care of those employees, and we don't look at this as a long-term issue, it might come back to haunt us,” said Bill Evanina, the former Director of the U.S. National Counterintelligence and Security Center, in this episode of SpyCast. He served under Presidents Barack Obama and Donald Trump.

Bill’s concern is not exclusive to the personnel at traditional intelligence agencies, like the CIA or NSA. He is deeply concerned about civilian institutions, such as the National Institutes of Health, Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, and the U.S. Patent Office. They have access to sensitive data, technology, and intellectual property.

But despite the value of their work, and at a time when the United States is openly competing with China, these agencies do not receive any counterintelligence training, Bill tells me. He spent years trying to change that. “We worked really hard with the [Trump] administration and Congress to be able to get some mandatory minimum requirements for training… It just didn't happen for a plethora of reasons.”

We talked about those reasons. And how cyber attacks — such as China’s Salt Typhoon intrusion on U.S. telecommunications, and Russia’s SolarWinds hack on government agencies through a software update — have given adversaries detailed information on U.S. citizens. Beijing and Moscow will use that data to identify, target, and recruit susceptible Americans. “They have a portfolio that’s second to none,” Bill said of the Chinese.

Russia sets its sights on traditional military and geopolitical targets. But China casts a much wider net. Definitely an episode for the ages.

Episode length: 29 minutes

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